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Witness Name: Ms Louise Dar
Statement No.:WITN0289_01
Exhibits: None
Dated: 4/2/2022
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS LOUISE DAR
1, MS LOUISE DAR WILL SAY as follows:
INTRODUCTION
1. I am grateful to the Chair to be invited to provide a “human impact” statement,
concerning the physical, psychological, emotional, reputational and_ financial
consequences to me and my family of being held responsible for shortfalls shown by
the Horizon IT system and Post Office Limited’s actions toward me and my family.
The initial paragraphs below provide a brief summary of my background, and provide
context to the detail of the human impact of the Horizon scandal on me and my
family. This statement does not reflect a full account of my experiences or those of
my family and if necessary or required I will provide further witness statement
evidence.
BACKGROUND
Zz lam from Lenzie, near Glasgow, my husband is originally from Pakistan, but he has
lived in Glasgow for the past 15 years. We have been married for 14 years and have
three young children together.
a I have a background in hospitality and IT; I worked for Hilton hotels as an IT analyst
for 4 years. I was then made redundant whilst I was on maternity leave.
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Following my redundancy, my husband and I decided to open a shop together. My
husband had been working in cash and carry prior to this but, his family own retail
stores in Pakistan.
We were running the shop for about 2 and half years before we decided to take on
the post office.
The previous post office owners were about six doors up from us and my husband
knew the previous subpostmaster fairly well. They were looking to move on from the
post office so we agreed to buy it from them.
We were well known amongst the locals so we thought we would secure the post
office for the community because we did not want them to have to go without a
local branch.
We also saw it as a good opportunity to bring more people into the shop which
would us provide a secure future for our family.
We undertook the process of becoming subpostmaster and in November 2014 we
had the local post office model installed into our retail business called Day Today
Express Lenzie.
I was a Subpostmistress of the Post Office at 118 Kirkintilloch Road, Lenzie, Glasgow
G66 4LQ from November 2014 to March 2017. I employed one assistant, from
November 2014 to July 2015.
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TRAINING AND SUPPORT
11. I had three days of classroom training around September 2014. This was in the
Springburn post office and I recall that the trainers name was Leslie. This was in a
training centre above the post office.
12. The trainer covered basic transactions such as selling labels and postage. I noted that
management and troubleshooting were not covered as part of the training and I
highlighted this at the time with Leslie, and he told me that this would be covered by
the onsite training.
13. I did ask for further training on the Horizon system and asked the trainer who came
to do the onsite training. The female trainer said that we should have had more
extensive classroom training (five days instead of three) but this more limited
training was delivered because of cost cutbacks by the Post Office.
14, My husband went with me for the classroom training, and there was a test at the
end of the three days. I passed but the trainer highlighted areas requiring attention
for my husband, so he did not work in the post office until he felt confident.
15, I did not find the training to be adequate at all. I used to be an IT analyst for Hilton
hotels and have a background in IT and I am very aware of how much training is
necessary to prepare for using a complex IT system such as Horizon.
16. I thought the training needed to be much more robust, and given that it is such a
complex system three days training is simply not enough. I asked the trainers what
to do if we had problems balancing and the trainer, Leslie, simply said that I should
check the figures and if in doubt phone the helpline.
17. In addition, someone from the Post Office called Margaret Guthrie helped to set up
my branch for opening and provided on-site training. Ms Guthrie showed me how to
count and sort cash, stock and stamps.
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The onsite training was entirely inadequate. Ms Guthrie arrived at 8am the first
morning and she experienced login issues and as such she was unable to log into the
Horizon system until about 10am or 11am.
I did stress to Ms Guthrie that I was not comfortable opening the branch without any
troubleshooting training. In particular, I said to Ms Guthrie that no guidance was
given at all as to what to do if we did not balance. I was simply told if this happened I
should call the Helpline.
Ms Guthrie was very dismissive of my concerns and told me that I would have to just
“get on with it” should I have difficulties. She made many mistakes before we
opened, such as remming (putting stock into the system) the stamps in wrongly.
I later learned that Ms Guthrie was also an auditor. I had a discrepancy of around
£977 when I opened that morning and Ms Guthrie suggested that I had taken the
money. This was a totally unjustified allegation, and also an impossibility.
Furthermore, Ms Guthrie had been with me constantly, it was an astonishing
allegation. There was also a power outage in the first week, which Ms Guthrie then
suggested that the alleged loss was caused by.
I was outraged that a Post Office auditor would leap to the conclusion that I would
steal money on the first day of training whilst in the company of a post office
auditor.
In fact, it was Ms Guthrie who had remmed the first class and second class stamps
into the Horizon system wrongly which caused the discrepancy. She did not
apologise at any time for her untrue allegation.
Ms Guthrie was an auditor, and when she looked into the shortage she could not
identify where she had gone wrong to enable her to rectify the issue. I was very
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concerned about this as she was an auditor and could not even find her own
mistake.
Astonishingly Ms Guthrie told me I had to pay back this £977, despite me not being
responsible for causing this loss. Ms Guthrie then left my branch with the alleged
shortfall outstanding, and said that she had other appointments to make and put the
£977 into a suspense account.
I subsequently called Brian Trotter, my Contracts Manager and the Helpline to
question a) why Ms Guthrie was allowed to leave my branch with this issue
outstanding; and b) why Ms Guthrie was allowed to be an auditor given her obvious
lack of ability.
They said they were looking into whether it was related to the power outage and the
matter would be escalated to Fujitsu because it was “their system”. I later heard
back from the Helpline and they said it wasn’t to do with the power outage and I had
to repay it. This occurred around one month after I had opened.
Around March 2014 Post Office issued a transaction correction through for the £977.
There was a phone number on this and I spoke to someone at Post Office,
Chesterfield and she said some kind of mistake had been made and then said that I
could take the amount back out of the safe to reimburse myself.
I requested that someone be onsite with me for longer for further training but the
Post Office refused my request.
I set out the above incident to demonstrate not only the obvious and immediate
flaws that were apparent to me in the Horizon system, but also the post offices
attitude to such shortfalls. In this case, the shortfall of £977 had been caused by the
incompetence of the post office trainer/ auditor, Ms Guthrie, despite this she first
accused me of stealing the money, then when it became clear that the shortfall had
been caused by her error she simply advised me that I was responsible for the
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shortfall and left. To make matters worse when I raised this with my Post Office
contracts manager there was no adequate response.
31. This incident of a shortfall that occurred on my first day of trading encapsulates the
whole problem with the Horizon system and the Post Offices response to shortfalls,
even shortfalls that were demonstrably not the responsibility of the
Subpostmistress.
HELPLINE
82. I estimate that I contacted the Helpline 2-3 times per month with regard to problems
relating to alleged shortfalls and/or balancing.
33. On one occasion I called regarding stock issues and was advised how to ‘get around’
Horizon. I was advised to correct the number of stamp books in the system, run my
monthly balance and then change the figures back again. They told me that they
‘shouldn’t be doing this’ but that I should alter the stock figures to balance.
34, When I did this on the system, there was a message saying to only do this if I had
permission from the Helpline. They then said I could go back in and change the
figures back after balancing to show the alleged shortfall. This advice was not
resolving anything, and was simply manipulating the system to delay resolving an
issue, leaving the issue still outstanding.
35. I had to do this because Deborah Lambley from the Post Office stock team in
Chesterfield had phoned me to try and resolve an issue with Christmas stamps. I had
remmed them in as second class stamps because I did not know where the correct
button was. I had later worked out how to fix it and put them through the system
correctly.
36. This is another example where the Post Office caused a shortfall but I was held
responsible for it.
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Deborah then said there were other issues with the stamps dating back to when Ms
Guthrie was in branch for my training and comprising the mistake she made. Ms
Lambley’s advice caused a further shortfall, so I had to call the Helpline.
The issue was not resolved until an auditor queried the stamp book discrepancy and
Chesterfield confirmed the stamps in fact had not been sent and the correction was
raised in error by Chesterfield.
In general, I did not find the Helpline to be helpful at all. I had previously worked on
an IT helpline and my experience was that you helped the customer no matter what
their issue until it was resolved.
In contrast, Post Office’s Helpline was not at all helpful, and they would say that they
could not “see the system” and simply told me to do a re-count and go through the
balance again, which I had already done. I felt that they said this because they did
not know what else to say.
I also found that my training was at odds with the Helpline advice. For example, the
helpline told me not to rely on the “variance” button, which Ms Guthrie had told me
I should do. If I asked about a specific transaction they would tell me that they did
not log the transactions because it was such a busy system.
The Helpline made me think I was the only subpostmistress in the country having
this issue. They would say things like ‘oh, that is strange’ when I described the
problem, and they acted surprised that this was occurring in my branch. There was
no acceptance nor indication that issues with alleged shortfalls were arising in other
branches.
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SHORTFALLS
43. In this section, I set out in very brief detail my experience of shortfalls arising from
deficiencies in the Horizon IT System, and Post Office Limited’s actions as a result. This
is only a brief introduction to those matters, in order to provide necessary context for
the explanation of the human impact which follows.
44. I would estimate that throughout my position in the branch, I paid or Post Office
deducted in excess of £44,000.
45. often had shortfalls ranging from £20-£100 when doing the daily or weekly balance. I
usually just put this money into the Post Office to balance and then rolled over. Given
my experiences with the post office trainers, auditors and managers I felt I had no
alternative other than to use my own money to cover these regularly occurring
shortfalls.
46. We had to use money from the retail side of the business to cover the shortfalls which
of course adversely affected the shop because we couldn’t afford as much stock; and
our ability to pay bills and staff was restricted. We had to delay paying our newspaper
bill which of course puts you in a bad position with your suppliers, in the long run it
made the shop go downhill.
47. On 15 July 2015, during an audit a shortfall arose amounting to £10,461.90 in relation
to cash, currency, postage, cheques. I paid this amount back in full to the post office
monthly, through my remuneration. I paid £877 per month for 1 % years.
48. This shortfall was discovered at an audit and I was not aware of this shortfall as I had
been on holiday in Pakistan to visit my family because my father in law had passed
away.
49. Just after we finished paying for this shortfall, another shortfall amounting to £2,489
was discovered during a separate audit. This was repaid in full through deductions
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from my remuneration. I was reassured that the money would come back that’s why
we paid, we had hopes to keep the post office running and alive.
50. In January 2017 there was discrepancy of £6,250 discovered during an audit. I was not
aware of this shortfall prior to the auditors discovering it. This alleged loss has not
been repaid.
AUDIT AND INVESTIGATION
51. I was first audited on 15 July 2015. My branch was attended by Margaret Guthrie.
Ms Guthrie had called around one week prior to the audit to inform me she would
be coming. This audit was conducted when I returned home from Pakistan.
52. Prior to leaving, I had fully trained my assistant on how to use the system and she
had also worked in a Post Office for around 8 years.
53. Later during the audit, another auditor also named Margaret arrived. Neither auditor
left until after around 8pm. I watched over her counting the cash and stock and
stamps.
54, The discrepancy was initially around £2,000 then things kept being added on by the
other Margaret. The final amount was £10,461.90.
55. Additionally, I never received any data or information relating to this audit so that I
could independently assess their findings.
56. I was also audited on 17 May 2016. This was conducted by an auditor called John
and he arrived early in the morning and left later that afternoon. I had been given no
notice of this audit but I was present.
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John telephoned Brian Trotter, my Contracts Manager and the alleged shortfall
discovered of £2,684 was added to the suspense account and we were allowed to
reopen the next day. This occurred just after I had finished repaying the previous
alleged shortfall (£10,461.90). The auditor, John undertook his balancing form what
he considered to be the last cash declaration. However, I advised him the last
declaration was done at around 9am the previous morning and had not been done
at the end of the day.
The auditor claimed this did not matter. However, I was fully aware that it did. Our
Post Office was in an affluent area where the majority of our customers take out
their daily maximum amount on Post Office cash account cards - which is £600 per
day. This meant that there would have been a big difference if the auditor did not
take into account the number of customers served for cash out or cash back since
the last balance.
I was advised by John (who had been in touch with Brian Trotter) that I could not
reopen the branch without first agreeing to repay the alleged shortfall. I only agreed
because I felt I had no choice and we had already made big changes to our shop in
order to accommodate the Post Office counter and my husband and I had two young
children and needed to earn our living. We felt completely powerless. We knew from
this instance and previous instances that the Post Office simply did not care why
shortfalls arose, the Post Office were simply determined to have their money from
us, no matter what; even if the PO were obviously and demonstrable wring in their
calculations.
During this audit, I asked why the system never balanced and explained that in my
previous IT roles, if there was a discrepancy of even a few pounds, we would search
until the reason was discovered and the error could be rectified. John laughed and
said that if I was only a few pounds down then I ‘should be laughing’. I asked why it
was the case that the system was expected to be imperfect and he said because
Horizon is a very busy system and had a vast number of transactions. John explained
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that the system should sort itself out by the time I did the weekly balance, but it
rarely did.
I had a third audit on 3 February 2017. I think the auditor was called Brian. During his
audit another Post Office employee called Caroline arrived to verify his findings. The
two auditors left late afternoon. I arrived after the auditors had begun their audit
because I was doing the school run.
Before I had even got through the door of the post Office, the auditors were telling
me that I had alleged losses. I could not believe that this was happening again, as
such I told the auditors that I had had enough and was considering closing my post
office. Caroline said that it would “all get sorted out”. I told her that the situation
was ridiculous and she said many people had said this. Caroline recounted the
stamps, stock and cash several times.
Neither Caroline nor Brian seemed too surprised or phased by the alleged shortages.
Caroline, was a lovely lady and lives in my locality. Caroline told me not to worry
about this and that it would get sorted out.
Caroline later came back around one month later to remove the cash and stock from
the branch. When she did so, she found further discrepancies. By this point I had
been locked out of the system, as such I had no access to the post office at all. As
such it was impossible for me to have been responsible for any further discrepancy
or loss. I did not understand how there could have been more alleged losses accruing
when I had not traded nor carried out any transactions at all.
Despite this Caroline asked me if I was willing to pay this there and then. The final
alleged shortfall was £6,870.85. This had been a £200 increase from the amount
stated during the audit.
At no time was I provided with the data necessary for me to independently check the
auditor’s findings. I was certain that their calculations were incorrect and that there
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were flaws in the Horizon system but I was denied any opportunity to check their
figures or the system.
67. By way of example, after the first audit (in which the £10,461.90 shortfall was
identified), my post office was closed for 6 weeks. After we were reopened, we were
shown no records or evidence of an investigation having been carried out. Instead, I
was presented with a list of what the Post Office claimed was missing. I had no
independent way of checking if this was accurate or not.
68. Eventually the Post Office sent me a letter and an auditor named James came out to
reopen my branch. James found another discrepancy when reopening my branch.
This was despite me not having access to my post office or Horizon for the 6 weeks.
As such, either the audit findings had been incorrect or there were still flaws in the
Horizon system creating shortfalls. There could be no other explanation because I
had no access to the post office or the Horizon system following the audit and prior
to the reopening of my post office. I had not been trading for the previous six weeks,
and yet I still had to pay back the alleged loss of £35.
69, There was no evidence of any investigation following the second audit. Following the
third audit, I was suspended and my Post Office was closed for several weeks before
my contract was terminated.
SUSPENSION AND TERMINATION
70. I was suspended for 6 weeks from 15 July 2015 after the first audit took place. The
Post Office did not appoint a temporary subpostmaster and my branch remained
closed for the whole 6 weeks. I was locked out of the Horizon system, the branch
safe and the tills so that the post office could conduct an investigation into the
shortfalls.
71. The Post Office’s investigation was inconclusive as to the cause of the shortfall of
£10,401.61. Despite this I was still compelled by the Post Office to pay this shortfall.
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The only alternative was to lose my post office and therefore my livelihood. I was
completely powerless in the situation. I had asked to see a breakdown of what had
been put through the system but the post office refused to show me or answer my
questions. As such I had no opportunity to independently check the figures I simply
had to pay what the post office was demanding under threat of losing my post office
and livelihood.
Following the third audit which took place on 3 February 2017 I was suspended in
relation the alleged shortfall the auditors found. Again, I was locked out of the
Horizon system, the branch safe and the tills and my contract was eventually
terminated on 27 March 2017.
Between my suspension and termination the Post Office forced me to attend a
formal interview. At the time my mother had just passed away, it was a sudden
death and the interview the Post Office forced me to attend was the day before her
funeral. The Post Office knew my mother had just died and was about to be buried
and I was an emotional wreck at this time.
During this interview I was accused of stealing the money from the post office and
questioned as to what I had done with the money. At the end of the meeting the
Post Office informed me that they would be in touch with their final decision but I
never heard back from them.
I had to chase the Post Office repeatedly to find out what was happening with the
investigation. The Post Office did not respond to any of my calls but I eventually
managed to get hold of the post office staff using my sister’s number. I was informed
that my contract was being terminated and I later received a letter from the Post
Office to this effect.
We were unable to sell the post office so it just remained closed. We tried to
continue running the shop and struggled on for about a year but the footfall had
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massively decreased due to the closure of the post office and the shop started going
downhill.
77. There is no question that I was treated completely unfairly by the Post Office. There
had been shortfalls from the very first day I opened the post office, caused by and
witnessed by a post office auditor, Margaret Guthrie. Other shortfalls were either
not properly investigated, or not investigated at all; or such as in the case of the
second audit were again a result of a complete failure of understanding basic
transaction dates by the post office auditor.
78. The situation I found myself in was one were the Post Office had all of the power,
and I had none. It was a completely unequal and unfair relationship, and the Post
Office new it and used that power against me.
CIVIL AND CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS
79. In the end the Post Office did not pursue civil or criminal proceedings against me for
recovery of the alleged shortfalls. However, given the formal interview I was
subjected to at the time of my mother’s death I did fear being prosecuted. Also I
believe I was not prosecuted because I simply paid the huge sums of money the Post
Office unreasonably demanded off me.
LOSSES
80. I lost the value of the business. The Post Office was relocated to our shop following
the advice of the Post Office. When we initially took on the post office we wished to
keep it as a standalone Post Office, but we were advised against this.
81. I also lost my investment, I paid approximately £9000 for renovating and fitting out
the branch as a condition of my appointment.
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82. I also lost my income as a subpostmistress which I expected to enjoy up until my
retirement.
83. I also lost the profits from the retail side of my business which had to close as a
result of the loss of my Subpostmistress ship.
84, We also still owe large sums of money to the HMRC for unpaid VAT which we were
not able to pay due to the Post office action against us.
HUMAN IMPACT
85. I suffered serious problems with the Horizon system including alleged shortfalls. Over
a four year period, I estimate I had to use £44,000 of my own savings in order to pay
the Post Office who demanded repayment after three separate surprise audits. I was
suspended as I was unable to make a payment of an alleged shortfall in 2017.
86. I was party to the group litigation against Post Office Ltd, as a result I am excluded
from the Historic Shortfall Scheme.
87. I was treated like a criminal by the post office and when I sought help the Post Office
audit team were extremely callous and made no attempt to find the root cause of the
alleged shortfalls. Specifically, Brian Trotter, my contracts manager, was particularly
keen to get me to admit to falsifying the books. He asked me to admit to this several
times.
88. The shortfalls resulted in our shop being affected financially. We could not afford to
pay the day to day bills including cash and carry bills. The cash and carry took out an
inhibition under my parent’s names even though my dad paid the cash and carry off.
This caused extreme anxiety for my family because my parents were trying to release
equity from their home due to financial issues.
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The Post Office Itd was deducting £866 a month from our remuneration for one of the
alleged shortfalls. This placed a huge amount of pressure on paying VAT, tax, rent and
other bills as well trying to raise a young family.
This caused me a lot of anxiety and worry at the time and at this same time my
mother died suddenly in March 2017.
We had put our life savings into this business. My mother-in-law even sold jewellery to
support us and having to watch it be stripped from under us was horrendous.
The shop suffered so much that we eventually had to close. We are still thousands of
pounds in debt to HMRC.
It caused a huge strain on me and my husband's relationship because we were both
under so much stress.
I was eventually not charged with any criminal offences. However, the fear of such
charges and the accusations of falsifying the figures were devastating.
Beyond the financial ruin, the reputational damage this caused me and my family was
very distressing and still lingers to this day.
The rumours that were spread about my family and I were awful. Our landlady at the
time tried to claim we didn’t deserve our deposit back and we ended up having to take
her to the tribunal. Our landlady stated in court document that I had been accused of
theft, using this as ammunition against me to stop us from receiving our deposit back.
The rumours about my family meant that people felt able to make such statements
about me.
Within about 6 weeks of the post office being closed down my husband was racially
abused and threatened by a customer who wanted stamps. The Post Office had shut
our branch but had not updated the website so people were still coming into the shop
expecting to be able to use the post office.
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98. This customer was a University professor. We reported his attack on my husband and
he was taken to court and found guilty of three counts of racial abuse and threatening
behaviour. This assault on my husband was a direct result of the Post Office’s actions
against us.
99. This experience made me become very nervous and anxious. I lost a lot of self-
confidence.
100. I found being in such a small village where everyone knows everything to be very
damaging. A lot of people did not want to support us, even a member of the public
who witnessed the racial abuse against my husband refused to come forward.
101. People in the local community were making their own minds up about us whether
they knew the facts or not. I still have people questioning me to this day ‘Why the
shop actually shut?’
102. Although he would never admit it, my husband’s mental health certainly suffered. As
an Asian man he does not like to speak about the affect the post office action had on
him but I could see how depressed and anxious he became.
103. I found my own way to cope through running. I needed to run in order to try to clear
my head of the constant worries I had. But all the time I could see the toll it was taking
on my husband.
104. We both had find alternative employment, which was a bitter pill for my husband to
swallow. To have to go and find a job after being self-employed for so many years
feels like a huge step back in life.
105. We had put our life savings, blood, sweat and tears into our shop and post office all
for it to be taken away from us.
106. We have been left with nothing but debt, and we are still struggling with the debt over
3 years later.
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107. Our family were very supportive and helped us out as much as they could.
108. I lost my mother during this period. In her last few weeks of life she spoke to me and
asked me to try and sort out all of the issues. This put enormous emotional pressure
on me. My mother suffered from anxiety amongst other things and the circumstances
the post office put my family and me in contributed towards her increased stress
levels.
109. My dad made every attempt to support us throughout, but as a retired elderly man it
put a lot of financial pressure on him and my mother. I still pay my dad back weekly as
and when I can afford to.
110. My husband managed to get a job at cash and carry and I got a job at
teleperformance. It was an awful job but I needed the money to pay the bills.
111. We were ruined financially and it is only now that we are starting to get back on our
feet.
112. I am still paying £50 a month to HMRC and these payments will continue until 2023.
My husband and I also still owe £6000 each in tax for PAYEE, I am still paying off debts
that I cannot afford, not to mention the credit card debt I have because of the Post
Offices actions.
CONCLUSION
113. We expected to be growing old in our shop with our children going to the local
schools, Instead we were left high and dry renting from an awful landlady who tried to
use our circumstances against us.
114. My husband and I both had to seek alternative employment, he now works in a shop
customer services.
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115. We have worked extremely hard in recent years to try to get back on our feet. We
have recently managed to secure a mortgage to buy a home for us and our children.
116. I am raising three young children and still having to pay off debts that we incurred
because of the actions of the Post Office and it is not fair that we have been left in this
position.
117. I am absolutely disgusted by the actions of the Post Office. The Post Office were aware
of the faults in the Horizon system. However, even though the Post Office knew what
was going on, they covered it up and used auditors to reassure me that the money
(shortfalls) would come back in transaction corrections.
118. I and my family had to take the fall for the Post Office’s wrong doings.
119. I would like this inquiry to get more media coverage in order to expose this scandal.
The group litigation was heavily overshadowed by the general election and I feel this
scandal did not get the attention it deserved.
120. I hope this inquiry gets more media coverage so everyone becomes aware that we did
not steal any money. I also want it to become known how much it affected our life and
every other subpostmasters life too.
121. I want it to be known that it was not our choice to close the post office, we were
forced out of business by the Post office. We didn’t ask for any of this to happen, it
was done to us.
122. Compensation would also be a great outcome from this inquiry but I just want to be
brought to zero again, I do not want any debts hanging over my head.
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123. We now have a new born baby. This should be an extremely exciting time for my
family and I but we are struggling to visit with him to meet the rest of the
family which is just heart breaking, because this is such an important thing in our
culture. The poverty the Post Office plunged us into continues to affect us years later.
STATEMENT OF TRUTH
I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
Louise Dar
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